Mercedes Benz PART AND REPAIR
Mercedes Benz replacement battery
The two most crucial factors in choosing a
battery are its "group size" and "cold-cranking amps."
The time to think about buying a new auto battery is before the old one fails.
Photo: Digital Vision
The time to think about buying a new auto battery is before the old one fails.
Once you're stranded by a dead battery, you probably won't want to spend time
shopping around for another. At the first sign that your current battery is
growing weaker, have a garage perform a "load test" to see if it's holding a
charge properly. If it isn't, find a new battery.
All car batteries aren't created equal. A battery's size, rated capacity, and
age help determine how it will perform.
WHAT'S AVAILABLE
Most auto batteries are made by just three manufacturers, Delphi, Exide, and
Johnson Controls Industries. Each makes batteries sold under several different
brand names. Delphi makes ACDelco and some EverStart (Wal-Mart) models. Exide
makes Champion, Exide, Napa, and some EverStart batteries. Johnson Controls
makes Diehard (Sears), Duralast (AutoZone), Interstate, Kirkland (Costco),
Motorcraft (Ford), and some EverStarts.
Service centers such as Firestone, Goodyear, Pep Boys, and Sears tend to have a
large, fresh inventory and relatively low prices. They also handle installation.
Stores such as Kmart, Target, Trak Auto, and Wal-Mart may have the lowest
prices, but not all of them can install a battery for you. Installing a battery
yourself is not technically difficult, but it can be cumbersome, and you have to
dispose of the old battery properly. Service stations and tune-up shops sell
batteries as well, and they offer convenient and comprehensive service, but
their selection tends to be limited and their stock may not be fresh. For cars
and trucks still under warranty, a franchised dealer is your first choice,
particularly if the vehicle warranty covers the battery. For older vehicles,
though, a dealership is probably the last resort—it's the most expensive service
venue. The two most crucial factors in choosing a battery are its "group size"
and "cold-cranking amps," or CCA.
Group Size. A group size defines the battery's outside dimensions and the
placement of the terminals on them. For instance, group size 75 fits mainly
General Motorscars. Size 65 applies to most large Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury
products. Newer Hondas, Nissans, and Toyotas use size 35. Most Chryslers use 34.
You'll also see combinations like 34/78, which has two sets of terminals and
will fit either Chryslers or some GM models. Choose the group size recommended
by your car's manufacturer. (Reference guides at battery retailers can tell you
which group size your car needs.) The wrong size might not fit securely.
Cold-cranking amps. CCA is a measure of a battery's ability to start a car in
cold weather, when thickened engine oil and slowed chemical reactions make
starting hardest. CCAs denote how much current the battery can deliver to the
starter at 0° F. Don't confuse CCA with CA, which stands for cranking amps.
That's a measure taken at 32° instead of 0° and is typically much higher than
the CCA rating.
Key considerations
Reserve capacity is another important measure of battery quality. It indicates
how many minutes your car might run using the battery alone, should the car's
alternator fail. You may have to check product literature rather than the
battery's labeling to find the reserve capacity.
Buy a fresh battery—one manufactured less than six months earlier. Batteries are
stamped with a date code, either on the battery's case or an attached label. The
vital information is usually in the first two characters—a letter and a digit.
Most codes start with the letter indicating the month: A for January, B for
February, and so on. The digit denotes the year: 0 for 2000, say. For example,
B3 stands for February 2003.
Warranties. Like CA ratings, battery warranties can sound better than they are.
You'll see two numbers: one for the total warranty period and one for the
free-replacement period (usually three months to three years). The
free-replacement period is key. If the old battery fails after this period
expires, you get only a prorated credit toward a new battery.
How to choose
Performance differences. Our tests of batteries regularly show wide variations
between and within brands. See below for details on how to obtain Ratings and
additional battery information.
What you can do. Check the battery group size and CCA for your vehicle. Not
every brand comes in every CCA level. To get the brand you want, you may need to
go a bit above your car's CCA requirements.
Steer clear of batteries with a CCA rating below the one specified for your
vehicle, as well as those rated 200 amps or more higher than the specified
rating. It's a waste of money to go too high. Buy a battery with the longest
reserve capacity you can find. If it's not printed on the battery (and it
usually isn't), ask store personnel or check product literature. Should your
car's charging system fail, a longer capacity can make the difference between
driving to safety and getting stuck.
Read our complete Ratings report and related information on car batteries
Auto batteries: price doesn't equal performance.(SPECIAL AUTO SECTION)(Buyers guide)
Auto batteries may look identical to you, but under the hood
they can perform quite differently from one another.And our tests show that some
of the best performers aren't necessarily the more expensive batteries.
With many auto parts stores and bigbox retailers now in the battery business, a
great variety is available. Most offer batteries at various prices, with
different promises of power and life expectancy. However, most replacement
batteries are manufactured by just three different companies: Exide, Johnson
Controls, and East Penn, which build them to retailer specifications.
Only one of the 62 batteries we tested rated excellent overall in the Ratings.
And even other sizes in that model line didn't earn those high marks. Our tests
included sizes that fit many passenger vehicles. Prices ranged from $40 to $100.
Longer life is critical if you take many short trips or do most of your driving
in warmer climates. Short trips shorten battery life by not affording a lot of
time for the alternator to recharge the battery. High temperatures can also
increase oxidation of components and vaporize the electrolyte needed to create
current.
Our battery-life test mimics those tough conditions by measuring how many
100-hour drain-and-recharge cycles batteries can handle before their cranking
voltage falls below industry standards. Models that excelled in this test
endured seven or more of those cycles; the worst performers endured less than
two.
HOW TO CHOOSE
You'll find many capable batteries within the five group sizes we tested.
Together, they cover many of the foreign and domestic cars and light trucks on
the road. See First Things First, below, to determine the correct battery size
for your vehicle.Then keep these points in mind:
Fresh is best. Batteries lose strength just sitting on a store shelf. Most are
labeled with a shipping-date code. When shopping, look for a month code
indicated by a letter ("A" for January, for example) and year ("6" for 2006).
It's best to choose a battery no more than six months old.
Insist on real-world performance. Cold-cranking amps (CCAs) are important,
especially for those living in cold regions. CCAs are a measure of how much
power a battery has at 0[degrees] F, when thickened engine oil makes an engine
hardest to start and available battery power drops significantly. Generally, the
higher the CCA rating, the greater the starting power of the battery regardless
of temperature. In our tests, where batteries are charged at lower, more
realistic voltage, we've found that few meet their cold-cranking claims. Only
one new model provided the full 30 seconds of cranking power required by our CCA
test this year, a decline from last year, when six passed.
Consider manufacturers' CCA claims only as a rough guide, then choose a battery
that performed well in our CCA tests.
Also look for a score of good or better in our life and reserve-capacity tests.
A battery's reserve capacity indicates how long it will power your car if the
charging system fails or if the lights are left on when the engine is off. The
models we tested with the best reserve capacity provided power for 120 to 150
minutes, but even models with the shortest reserve, 60 to 90 minutes, should
provide sufficient power to get you to safety or start your car.
Pick the best warranty. Other numbers printed on the battery indicate warranty
information. A code such as 24/84, for example, indicates a free-replacement
period of 24 months and a prorated warranty of 84 months. It's best to pick one
with the longest free-replacement period available because the amount of
reimbursement in the prorated period usually drops off quickly as the battery
ages.
Choose the right battery for your climate. Chilling cold isn't the hardest
environment for batteries; hot temperatures actually.
If your car engine won't rev up after a jump-start, you may
need a new battery. Because you'll be in a hurry when your car is sitting there,
do your research before the crisis. Here's what to consider. McClatchy-Tribune
Newspapers
Be able to read the code. Auto parts stores have a guide to help you pick the
correct size.
• First, you'll need to look up the year, make and model of your car in the
battery guide for a group number. Sometimes the size of the car engine also will
make a difference in which group number is assigned to your car. That group
number (Example: 58-600) tells you what size battery you'll need to buy.
• The second number you need to pay attention to indicates the battery's
cold-cranking amps, or CCA. This measures a battery's ability to start a car in
cold weather. Your car manual will tell you what CCA rating is best (Example:
460). Consumer Reports recommends steering clear of batteries with a CCA rating
below the specified rate for your car, or a battery with a CCA rating 200 amps
higher than what's recommended in the manual. A high rating will give the car a
little more power, but it's a waste of money to go too high.
Age is key. You need to know how long the battery has been on the shelf before
you buy it. The manufacture date will be labeled in one of several forms. Some
dates are simply written out, other dates are written in a letter and digit
code. The letter will indicate the month, A for January, B for February, etc.,
and the digit denotes the year, 0 for 2000. The code A5, for example, means
January 2005. Dave Kruger, manager of an auto mechanics store in Newport News,
Va., says batteries should be less than a year old, and Consumer Reports
recommends a shelf life of less than six months.
You're paying for the warranty. Batteries typically cost $60 to $200 (except for
hybrid batteries). Kruger says the cheaper batteries run for less time, with the
least expensive batteries lasting only about 2 years. You can get a sense of how
long the battery is expected to last by what type of manufacturer's warranty
comes with it. Consumer Reports says to pay attention to the "free replacement
period" in the warranty. If your battery fails after that period, you'll get
only a prorated credit toward a new battery.
It should run on its own. Reserve capacity, the number of minutes a battery can
run on its own if the alternator fails, is another measure of battery quality.
Consumer Reports suggests buying a battery with the longest reserve capacity you
can find. Consult the battery's manual for this information.
Test the alternator first. Kruger recommends testing the battery and alternator
before buying a battery. He says about half of cars that won't start have a bad
alternator. Auto parts stores such as AutoZone and Advance Auto perform these
tests for free.
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Inverter Applications
What kind of charger?
More info on Optima deep cycle batteries
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Optima battery FAQ
Are 6V batteries best for deep cycle power?
Selecting the right Optima Battery
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Battery
drperrier
03-02-2005, 05:53 PM
I usually replace a battery when it finally dies on me, but the thought of
hopping in my E320 one fine Saturday morning for a drive and finding out it
won't turn over doesn't settle to well with me. Considering that's an entire
weekend without my benz as the benz dealer service dept. is only open Mon - Fri
8 to 5.
Thus, was thinking about getting a new battery before that, but wasn't sure
when. I wondered if there was an expectant useful life on the battery? Well,
maybe I should first ask how do you get to the battery? According to my owner's
manual it's under the rear seat.
bill streep
03-02-2005, 09:29 PM
If your 2000 has the original battery - you are getting there... 5 years is a
lot to expect. Might try Exide as a replacement.
Ferdman
03-03-2005, 05:59 AM
Jeremy, 5 years is about what to expect from a MB battery. There are 2 releases
on the bottom of the seat ... one on each side. Feel around and you'll find
them. Someone (you or the dealer's Service Department) should have been checking
and adding water to the battery every 6 months or so. I'm not sure if the dealer
has an analyzer than can determine the life expectancy of your battery, but as
you mention there is no real warning. One day the battery will simply be dead
... at least that was my experience with our 1998 E320. The Mercedes Roadside
Assistance should be available 24-7 and they will replace the battery
free-of-charge. Of course you pay for the new battery. My dealer has even
suggested that instead of going to the Parts Department to buy a new battery
simply call Roadside Assistance and they will come to your house and replace it.
vince
03-03-2005, 06:18 AM
The battery on my 1999 E430 seemed fine, but I started getting a BAS/ESP
Malfunction Indicator. The battery voltage was dropping down under 10 volts at
times which is the threshold for the ESP/BAS system according to the Owners
Manual. I changed mine out and the problem seems to be solved. So I think you
should probably go for it.
The battery isn't that expensive. The back seat cushion is easy to remove. There
are two plastic levers you toggle to unclip the front edge and it comes out. The
battery is under the right hand passenger's area. Make sure you get a battery
that has a connection for the vent tube. The vent tube vents any hydrogen that
boils off the battery under the car. It is a clear plastic tube with a 90 degree
elbow at the battery end. It connects on the inboard side of the battery. This
is important. There was a recall on the W202 C-Class because batteries were
exploding. The battery on that car is in the trunk. Replacemnt batteries without
the vent were installed and hydrogen accumulated in the trunk. When the trunk
was opened the switch for the light supplied a spark. One little convenience you
may not notice at first. There is a plastic cover on the rear wall of the
passenger footwell. It is an access to the chassis end of the negative battery
cable. Remove the cover, disconnect the cable, bend it back and clip the cover
partially in place over the cable so the cable cannot touch ground while you
work.
You will have to synchronize the windows, seats, sunroof, key and ESP/BAS and
enter the radio code when you disconnect the battery. Basically, run the windows
down to the bottom and hold the switch for a few seconds. Do the same going up.
Then test the express up/down features. Same with the sunroof. I can't remember
exactly how to do the seats, but it is a similar process. The key should resynch
a few seconds after inserting it into the switch. The BAS/ESP will reset after
turning the wheel all the way left and right. The instructions are buried in
various spots in the Owners Manual - you can find them with a bit of patience.
Peter Guenther
03-03-2005, 11:21 AM
MB Roadside service will come out, and replace your battery for the same price
as you would pay at the dealer. They unlike the dealer, will not charge labor. I
called my service advisor and was told to do it this way. I have done this at
least three times, the tech has a lot of batteries in the truck and will resync
your windows and radio, usually within a hour
Robby Ackerman
03-03-2005, 05:24 PM
In the past week or so after one of those heavy snows in Cambridge, MA my son's
car got snowed in on the street by his apartment. He spent an hour using public
transport in the morning getting to MGH and 2 hours getting home for what is
usually a 15 min commute. Around ten p.m. he went out and dug the car out of 6'
of snow and it wouldn't start. He called AAA for a jump and the heavy duty
diesel truck couldn't even stir the starter in his MB diesel. About midnight he
returned to his apartment knowing he had to be at the hospital at 5:30 a.m.
MB Roadside assistance! He called them at midnight, got ahold of some cheerful
fellow who dispatched an ML 320 full of batteries to his home. 30 minutes later
a new battery had been installed, he turned the key and in 20 seconds his diesel
roared to life. At 5 a.m. he headed off to Mass General to start his rounds.
drperrier
03-05-2005, 09:02 PM
Gee, didn't know I'd have to do some much to change the battery. Thanks for the
instructions Vince, I'll look it over and see if I should ask my Dad, a
mechanic, to help out.
What's this about adding water to a battery every 6 months. I've never done that
before to any car I've owned or known anyone who has. Is this a requirement on
benz batteries?
Ferdman
03-06-2005, 03:30 AM
Jeremy, the electroloyte level in any battery that has removable caps (i.e. not
completely sealed) should be checked every 6 months or so, not just MB
batteries. The plates inside the battery should be completely covered. Typically
there is a sticker on the battery that illustrates the proper electrolyte level.
If it's too high the electrolyte may spill out of the battery and corrode the
battery tray, etc.
Tom Hanson
03-06-2005, 11:19 AM
Batteries tend to die suddenly, and it's not uncommon for them to be so dead
that you can't even jump start the car. The warranty on replacement MB batteries
is 5 years, pro-rated. If I had a 5 year old battery in my car, I'd tend to not
wait for that fateful moment on a weekend when it would probably die at the most
inconvenient time. Do the roadside thing like everyone else suggested. MB
batteries are made by Interstate and cost about the same as one with the other
label on it. The fact that you can get it changed so conveniently is another
plus to buying one from MB. I wouldn't wait if I were in your shoes.
bill streep
03-06-2005, 01:41 PM
In response to your above comments:
1) Every (or just about every) non-gel battery "needs" water, even the "zero
maintenance" batteries, if you expect to the most life out of them
2) You are correct, almost NO ONE puts water in them like you should - therefore
the reason for the shortened life.
cerbomark
03-16-2005, 10:32 AM
i change mine if it makes it to 4 years. Don t like to be stuck.
Frank Nuhfer
03-26-2005, 07:25 PM
Mine died without warning, almost 5 yrs to the day. Would not take a jump.
Installed my boat battery, started car to get it home. Bought new one from
dealer, about $115 if I recall, not that bad considering the size of the thing.
EZduzit13669
12-10-2006, 09:24 PM
Without a doubt the very best batteries you can buy are the 'Optima' batteries:
One of these should last a good 10 years. < http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/
>
This summer I purchased a 'D31M - Blue Top' battery for my '91 560SEL at my
neighborhood Advance Auto Parts dealer. However, I soon found out that the
battery cables were too short and would not reach the battery terminals. Before
buying any battery, be sure to check the type of posts required as well as the
length of your car's battery cables to make sure they reach the terminals. In
fact, even the location of the battery terminals may make a difference as all
batteries are not created equal (or made the same).
lkchris
12-11-2006, 03:00 PM
MB batteries are made by Interstate
"Interstate" is a marketing company, and it's doubtful they own any battery
factories. There are only 1 or 2 in the USA in any event. See Johnson Controls,
Exide, etc.
Most recent two Mercedes dealer batteries I've purchased were labeled "Made in
Portugal." Somehow doubt Interstate has a factory in Portugal.
lkchris
12-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Without a doubt the very best batteries you can buy are the 'Optima' batteries
Lots of doubt here.
"One size fits all" usually doesn't.
Alex
12-11-2006, 04:47 PM
The field replacement of batteries by the M-B dealer sounds like a great plan.
Never knew it was an option, so I never did it before, but will surely consider
it when a new battery is needed - especially in the newer cars.
I don't enjoy checking the water level in batteries and spilling distilled water
all over the place. For that reason, years ago I started using the batteries
which don't have access to the liquid inside. When I sense that the car takes
longer to start than usual I replace the battery. About four to five years seems
to be the interval in the '81 300TD.
The two small batteries that go into the Porsche don't seem to be available in
the no-user-service type, so I struggle with checking the water, which is harder
than in the 300TD because you have to first remove the spare wheel from the
trunk then slide each battery out of its tight tray to get at the cell caps.
Baking soda is my constant companion when I'm in there, to control the potential
corrosion from battery acid spills in the trunk. And because of the limited use
the car gets, three to four years is about the most I get from each pair of
batteries. Sometimes one dies, while the other one is still good. Both get
replaced in that case.
Batteries deserve respect because bad things happen when they're not tended to.
Yet, when it comes to batteries, our awareness level stays low. It's fair to say
that many of us neglect them until they fail.
lkchris
12-12-2006, 03:17 PM
The new W211 (E-class) and probably others used sealed batteries.
I'd think it very likely these are usable in W210s.
And, believe it or not, in some WIS literature these are called "fleece"
batteries.
"Fleece" must be Mercedes' new favorite word!
lkchris
12-12-2006, 03:20 PM
Batteries deserve respect because bad things happen when they're not tended to.
Had a battery explode one time in my VW van.
It's located under the passenger seat, and the van interior makes quite a sound
chamber.
Happened in parking lot of VW parts store. They sold me a new one and loaned me
a wrench and I was on my way!
Peter Guenther
12-13-2006, 05:43 AM
Mercedes Roadside Assistance, available 24/7 for battery, fuel, tire, and minor
repair (belt or fuse). This is vailable for the life of your MB owned ,
borrowed, but not stolen, they check VIN. This is on the road, at your house,
office, probably at the mall. It helps to have your cell since they call you
back and tell you they are on the way or when. It has never taken more than a
hour. If it is warranty item N/C they replaced my battery under the 4yr/50,000.
Out of warranty batteries are usually $150 or so, no fuss no bother, and usually
have "code" and will re-sync windows and things.
They even arranged to have my 92, and my ML towed to the dealer when it was a
non roadside fix.
lkchris
12-14-2006, 10:37 AM
Here's the list of who makes Interstate Batteries:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/batbrand.htm#I
Mostly made by Johnson Controls
Explore the whole page for other interesting information.
BENZITCH
02-21-2007, 01:05 PM
Bought a new one from the dealer, and it was $119.00. I instaled it and after a
few days it died, and would not hold a charge.
I returned it to the dealership, with the receipt, and they replaced it without
a pro rate.
The service/parts department guy told me that there is a 2 year warranty on the
battery. The 2 years started when I purchased the first replacement battery, and
if this one "****s the bed" I can get another one, as long as it is within the 2
year purchase of the first replacement battery.
psenders
02-21-2007, 01:29 PM
Getting the battery in/out of my 2000 C280 is pretty easy. Problem comes about
when you disconnect power you loose the Door locks, Sunroof, electric windows
all work a little weird until you reprogram them. Does anyone know how I can re
install the battery without resyncing these controls. The Battery is in the
trunck on this model.
I saved myself $450 - $550 by simply cutting one wire in the
connector to the seat control module and splicing it with another wire.
Basically, the drainage is happening because the power isn't being turned off
after a pre-set amount of time. This is a convenience feature so that you c an
still adjust the seats after you turn off the engine. I suppose it's also for
safety if you get into an accident someone can move your seat back and pull you
out. In any case, the failure prevents the power from turning off so it stays on
all night. There are three wires. Two are positive. One is constant and one is
on only with ignition. Cut the one that's constantly on (which should be turning
off after after while but isn't) wire and splice the end that goes into the
controller under the seat with the one that is on only when the ignition is
turned. Do some more searches on google and you'll be able to find actual
pictures of how its done. It took me five minutes. I did it a few days ago and
the battery works fine without me driving the car. Before it would drain over
night.
Just wanted to pass this info on since I got it for free.
C320 Battery Replacement Problems
Ihave the same problem with my C320. I parked the car and went canoeing for
three days and when I got back, dead battery. I had recently purchased a new
battery three months earlier from the dealer so I ran some tests on the battery
and it was pretty much dead, it would not hold a charge so i brought it back to
the dealer and they refused to honour the warranty. I explained my symptoms to
the warranty manager and they still refused to honour it, they wanted to inspect
the car first. Well based on whatI now know, I know why, they knew what was
wrong and did not want to admit it.
To diagnose the problemI downloaded the control schematics for the C A N . This
is the communications network in our cars that allows the various control
devices to communicate.Its similar to the ethernet network for your computers at
work or home. Each device, like theseatcontrols in the doors and the power
seats, are connected to a network.Older carsconnectedthe devices together, (i.ewindow
switch to window motor)however now they are all connected to a two wire network.
The ESI is the network controller. When the ESI andall the other controllers on
the network are poweredup theyconsume between 1 and 1.5 amps, @12V thats about
12-18 watts of power. When you turn off the ignition the ESI waits 45 seconds
then goes into sleep mode. It thenconsumes about 200mAmps or .2 of an amp. This
is to allow the keyless entry to function. When youpush the key the ESI wakesup
the network andthen you canunlock thedoors, windows, sunroof, move the seats,
the steering column etc. If you then do nothing for 45 seconds it again goes
back to sleep.
In order for the ESI to sleep all the controllers(seats, windows, sunroof, etc.)
must stop communicating with it(i.e. the user must stop pushing the buttons). In
my case, andI suspect in most of the other cases the seat controllers continue
to chat with the ESI module prevent it from sleeping.They donot actually drain
any power, they just prevent the car from sleeping.
Lets do some math,if the car used 1 ampfor12 hours it will consume 12 amphrs.
The batteryis a 100 amphr battery so it will be drained down to 88%. At 88% the
car will start fine. If you leave the car for 3 days it will drain 72 amphrs and
the battery will be at 28%. Since these are not deep cycle batteries your car
won't start. If you drain the battery down to 88% each night it will spend most
of its life below 100% which will cause sulfation and ruin the battery. You will
loose about 10 % capacity permonth. So you put in a new battery, it works for
three months then you leave your car for 24 hours. The car won't start.
If the car goes to sleep it drains 200mAmps, which in 12 hours drains 2.4amphrs
or the battery drops to 97.6%. The car starts, the alternator charges it back up
and you get minimal sulfation.
The problem is pretty simple for mercedes shop to figure out, you put a amp
tester on the battery and watch the car go to sleep. However figuring out which
module is causing the chatter can be challenging, i suspect the dealers cannot
inspect the traffic on the CAN so they have to guess which controller is the
culprit.
You can try this at home,
1. with the car OFF disconnect the ground wire to the battery and insert a 10amp
current tester, (CAUTION) donot try to start the car or you will need a new amp
tester.
2. you should see a current between 1 and 1.4amps. When you first connect the
power the ESI will wake up. Close all the doors and wait for 45 seconds, you
will notice the driver's commandconsole illuminationinside the car will go out
and the current will drop to 200mAmps.
3. If you open a door, or push on the key the current will jump to 1 Amp again
as the ESI module wakes up.Rinse and repeat....
If you are having this problem the current will not drop, and more then 200-300
mAmps will be a problem. Simply disconnect the various modules, I would start
with the seat controllers and then wait 45 seconds after you shut the door to
see the current drop. In my case it only went to sleep whenI disconnected both
seat controller modules. OnceI did that the car went to sleep every time. So the
problem is either the ESI module, the seat controls on the doors, or the seat
control modules on the floor. You cannot be sure which one it is becauseany
module can keep the car awake.
If you only have a volt meter then use this test( it is not as good a test):
With the car turned off attach the volt meter to the battery posts. You
shouldmeasure between 12.6 and 12.8 volts. Open the door and confirm the command
console is lit. Then shut the door and watch the volt meter. It should drop
slowlyby .1 or .2 volts. The voltagedrop is caused by the ESI being awake. After
45 seconds it should start to rise back upand stopbetween 12.75 and 12.8. If it
doesn't rise but continues to drop then you have the problem.
You can repeat this test whiledisconnecting modules until the voltage bounces
back up. This test assumes you have a good battery and alternator, the previous
inline current test doesn't care.
What Mercedes should do is a software upgrade that times how long it remains
awake while the ignition is off and either raise an alarm, heck it alarms for
everythingelse,or force itself to sleep. It should also monitor the battery
voltageand alarm ifthe battery drops below 80%. This would cost them almost
nothing and save alot of their customers grief.
If you have any questions or would like to contactme,Ican be reached at:
Steven Ladouceur P.Eng.
steven.ladouceur@terralock.ca
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#22
Old 01-06-2009, 11:09 PM
Les4Parts Les4Parts is offline
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Default RE: C320 Battery Replacement Problems
Those prices don't sound out of line.
The trouble is that we are still having trouble getting used to these electronic
nightmares we call cars.
We want all the technology we can get but we forget that the more complex these
contraptions get the more there is to break and the more we need the electronic
test computers to diagnose needed repairs.
I have long said, give me breaker point ingnition and a carburator and I can fix
it under the tree.
Those days are long gone now NASA has trouble fixing these space shuttles.
Meanwhile. F1Fan you wrote<<But at least you can tell the MB tech to fix
one prob only (and save on the hourly charges) rather than have him diagnose the
entire car.>>
Actually if you tell your service advisor why there are multiple error messages
ie you disconnected the battery and he annotates it on the repair order the
technician will simply reset the messages and rerun the diagnostic proceedure to
find the true defect. Flatrate Technicians usually don't want to waste their
time running down rabbit trails while one of the other Techs gets all the "gravy
work".
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#23
Old 01-14-2009, 11:07 PM
nbrock_85 nbrock_85 is offline
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Default
I have an 01 C320, is there anyways you can disconnect the battery in order to
get some of the warning lights to go out instead of going to a MB dealership? I
had my brakes replaced and NOW the brake light sensors are on when they were
never on before? Any ideas? What is the ESP warning light an indication of?
Thanks
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#24
Old 01-18-2009, 03:09 AM
dsoelter dsoelter is offline
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Default Replace the wear sensor ??
If the light is on, either the sensor was not replaced as is required once it
shorts out and lights the instrument panel warning, or the new sensor is not
properly connected.
If I recall correctly, you cannot re-use the sensor, it must be replaced.
DFS
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#25
Old 01-22-2009, 05:32 PM
fivetimeowner fivetimeowner is offline
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Default 2001 C320, completely dead, more than the battery?
I have a 2 year old battery in my 2001 C320 (71K miles), drove it 2 days ago,
went to get in it today and the key unlock would not work. I used the valet key,
got in the car and inserted the key into the steering lock......nothing. No
lights, nothing. What could be wrong? Sounds like more that a battery.
Autocraft
The Autocraft Titanium features:
*
Fully framed positive grid with fortified top strip - retards grid growth and
minimizes corrosion for longer life. Superior design to positive expanded metal
*
Premium STC alloy - Silver/Tin/Calcium alloy - is maintenance free yet corrosion
resistant for longer life in today's high underhood temperatures
*
Uniform, dual-sided pasting keeps plates from warping and reduces the incidence
of shorting through the separator
*
Anti-shedding negative paste formulation increases the durability and life of
the product
*
Smoothed plate corners reduces short circuit risk common to square corner grids
*
Refined intercell weld alloy delivers longer weld life
*
Increased lug width reduces electrical resistance and increases cranking
performance
The original AC Delco has lasted 4 years and is not doing so
well in the cold. Should I replace it with the same thing or a knock-off from
Autozone/Advanced Auto Parts type place? Sorry, don't know much about batteries,
I would think that they are all pretty much the same.
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Old 10-05-04, 08:03 AM #2
dtcarson
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I got my battery from Advanced.
The battery in my 1997 BMW 318ti was about 7 years old, and it was on its last
cranks.
I don't think I've ever had a problem with an auto-parts-store battery. Most of
them come with a warranty [keep your receipt] of anywhere from 1-7 years [and 7
years is about what you can expect out of the average battery anyway].
To an extent, a battery is a battery.
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Old 10-05-04, 08:05 AM #3
icondude
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Ideally, you should replace it before it goes bad.
Get the one with the largest cold cranking amps that will fit in your battery
space and has the proper terminal orientation (meaning that you want the +
terminal on the same side as the + side on your existing battery).
They are all pretty much the same and fall into 3 categories:
1. Gel
2. Regular lead acid with non-removable vents.
3. Regular lead acid with removable vents.
#2 is the most common kind to find.
I always get #3. I want to be able to add water to the battery if I have to. The
kind where you can't add water to them are a scam because the only difference is
that you can't add water to them if you have to. That way if you overcharge the
battery and dry it out (like voltage regulator failure, or something) it's no
problem to remove the vent and add water. Most people are too lazy and or stupid
to add water to their battery which is why they make so many where you can't add
water, and then mistakenly refer to them as "maintenance free" (meaning that you
can't add water, it's not really maintanence free).
Brand realy doesn't matter that much, except stay away from used or refurbished
batteries and Die Hards. NAPA has good batteries. I got a 7 year battery from
them once (made by Johnson Controls) that lasted me almost 9 years. Just call
around and tell the parts counter person that you want one where you can add
water if you want to and they should be familiar with the concept.
And if you have time, wait for a sale. I usually buy mine at auto parts stores,
particlly it's because I want one that is as fresh as possible and I have no
idea how long the ones at places like Walmart have been on the store shelf.
I'm sure OldDude might also have some interesting comments also.
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Old 10-05-04, 08:07 AM #4
icondude
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Re: Need to replace car battery
Quote:
Originally posted by svadas
The original AC Delco has lasted 4 years and is not doing so well in the cold.
It's probably a 3 year battery.
Quote:
Originally posted by svadas
Should I replace it with the same thing or a knock-off from Autozone/Advanced
Auto Parts type place?
Aftermarket batteries are just fine. The one I have in my car right now I bought
at Pep Boys.
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Old 10-05-04, 08:29 AM #5
weargle
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Go to any Advanced Auto/AutoZone/Pep Boys and they'll swap it out for you in the
parking lot. Remember to write down your preset radio stations ahead of time!
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Old 10-05-04, 08:31 AM #6
svadas
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I'm leaning that way right now.
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Old 10-05-04, 09:06 AM #7
criptik28
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I bought mine from Sears.
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Old 10-05-04, 09:33 AM #8
zuffy
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I am a Die Hard fan. Used them in my 3 previous and current car and never had a
problem.
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Old 10-05-04, 09:39 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by icondude
...
Brand realy doesn't matter that much, except stay away from used or refurbished
batteries and Die Hards.
...
What's wrong with DieHards? I've always gotten them and they last pretty long
with no trouble. In my 15 year old Camry I've on my second DieHard after the
original battery.
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Old 10-05-04, 09:40 AM #10
Otto
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svadas: What kind of car is it? Make, model, year, engine size (in liters), etc.
I'll do a quick lookup and give you some general pricing info if you like.
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Old 10-05-04, 09:44 AM #11
svadas
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It's a 2000 Alero with the V6.
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Old 10-05-04, 09:44 AM #12
dtcarson
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Quote:
Originally posted by weargle
Go to any Advanced Auto/AutoZone/Pep Boys and they'll swap it out for you in the
parking lot. Remember to write down your preset radio stations ahead of time!
Very nice feature, I didn't have to bust my knuckles or anything.
But my stereo has a thing where, if the battery is removed, it locks the stereo
until you enter a code. Mine was the original battery, so I have never needed
the code. Went stereoless for a couple weeks till I could get to the dealer
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Old 10-05-04, 09:54 AM #13
Otto
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Okay, I did a lookup at a random AutoZone store in your area:
2000 OLDSMOBILE ALERO 6 CYL 207 E 3.4L SFI
Part 75-DG: Duralast Gold (720CCA) - 8 year warrenty - $74.99
Part 75-D: Duralast (650CCA) - 7 year warrenty - $54.99
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Old 10-05-04, 10:03 AM #14
svadas
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Advance Auto Parts has
Autocraft 753
AUTOCRAFT TITANIUM
for $64.88
3 Year Free Replacement/ 72 mo. Pro Rated
I'm thinking this might be the best deal unless the Duralast has a free
replacement for the first 3 years.
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Old 10-05-04, 10:15 AM #15
Otto
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Quote:
Originally posted by svadas
I'm thinking this might be the best deal unless the Duralast has a free
replacement for the first 3 years.
Most Duralasts do have a free 3 year replacement as part of the warrenty, and
it's prorated after that. It should state all this on the receipt when you buy
the thing.
I think that it's any with the 7-8 year warrenty have the 3 year free
replacement, and any with the 5-6 year warrenty have a 1 or 2 year free
replacement.
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Old 10-05-04, 10:31 AM #16
svadas
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Autocraft versus Duralasts? Duralast is $10 more, is it any better?
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Old 10-05-04, 10:44 AM #17
Otto
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Quote:
Originally posted by svadas
Autocraft versus Duralasts? Duralast is $10 more, is it any better?
From what you just posted, Duralast is $10 *less*. It's the Duralast Gold that's
$10 more.
If I were you, I'd go with the Duralast (non-Gold). The Gold would be better if
you had some modifications that would put more drain on the battery or
something, but beyond that it's probably not necessary. The Autocraft Titanium
is basically an in-between model to those two. With batteries you largely get
what you pay for, there's not a lot of potential differences other than capacity
and quality of worksmanship (which is all internal and not visible without
breaking the thing open).
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Old 10-05-04, 10:48 AM #18
svadas
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I eliminated the non-gold because it is only a 2 year replacement warranty. The
Gold and Autocraft were both 3 years, so I thought they'd be somewhat
equivalent.
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Old 10-05-04, 11:11 AM #19
dtcarson
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Be careful with your receipt--I dont know about your stores, but my Advance Auto
Parts used cheapo receipt paper that faded within a month [of sitting in my
glove compartment.] I'm sure my purchase is in a computer somewhere, but I don't
know if that will qualify me for the warranty should I need it.
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Old 10-05-04, 11:31 AM #20
Otto
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I dunno about Advance Auto Parts, but at an AutoZone, make sure to ask about the
warranty when you buy it. They should put your phone number into the system on
the purchase and it sends it to the national database. Receipt is then not
necessary as long as they key it on your phone number. The system is nationwide,
so you can get a replacement for it at any AutoZone, anywhere.
svadas: You're right, the non-gold is a 2 year replacement. My bad.
Last edited by Otto; 10-05-04 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 10-05-04, 09:03 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by weargle
Go to any Advanced Auto/AutoZone/Pep Boys and they'll swap it out for you in the
parking lot. Remember to write down your preset radio stations ahead of time!
sometimes, you'll also need a security code if you disconnect the battery.
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Old 07-24-06, 04:39 PM #22
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Does Costco sell batteries? My battery has died (or is about to) and I can get
it jumped but need to go directly to the place of purchase. There's a Sears
nearby that I was going to take it to since they have one that would work, but
since I'm a member of Costco, I assume they'd have them for cheaper. Is it worth
it to buy from Costco or should I just get one from sears or Autozone or some
place near by. Thanks
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Old 07-24-06, 04:47 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movielib
What's wrong with DieHards? I've always gotten them and they last pretty long
with no trouble. In my 15 year old Camry I'm on my second DieHard after the
original battery.
Now 17 years old and still on the same battery as in '04.
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Old 07-24-06, 05:10 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dick_grayson
Does Costco sell batteries? My battery has died (or is about to) and I can get
it jumped but need to go directly to the place of purchase. There's a Sears
nearby that I was going to take it to since they have one that would work, but
since I'm a member of Costco, I assume they'd have them for cheaper. Is it worth
it to buy from Costco or should I just get one from sears or Autozone or some
place near by. Thanks
I use the Costco battery and it works great, good price too.
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Old 07-24-06, 05:52 PM #25
jonw9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icondude
It's probably a 3 year battery.
Lets see what whe have here. GM vehicl with a 3 yr./36k warranty. I am guessing
this battery is design to last approximately 37 months.
That being said, mine lasted 6 years, and I just bought a new one from Murray's,
after checking Meijer and Wal-Mart.
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Old 01-27-2008, 09:06 AM #33 (permalink)
nikki98
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HOW DO REPLACE BATTERY FOR AN E CLASS 320 PLEASE HELP
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:38 AM #34 (permalink)
raj5000
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Thank You! and Thank You!! for the instructions and inputs here. I was able to
replace a 127$ battery from 2001 ML320, took 30 minutes. Only one thing to add,
don't connect the wires till the covering is place back and tightend. I did that
mistake and there were billions of sparks while I was trying to place the
covering back, the positive of metal wire assembly was touching the metal casing
while adjusting, so I undid the connection, place the casing first then
connected. Just need to get the radio code, hmmm hope dealership doesn't ask me
to come in for it.
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:42 AM #35 (permalink)
joeml
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This post would be nice for a "sticky".
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:14 AM #36 (permalink)
NewsHound
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My new OEM battery was $144.45 including tax, installed in my garage by Roadside
assistance in PA. No labor charge. Tech even declined to take some of my German
beer.
Original 1999 ML320 battery was showing signs of weakness. Trip computer would
lose date after a few days.
Headlights left on accidentally over a two-hour dinner left battery too weak to
start. It was replaced next morning, radio code re-entered, steering reset, auto
down front windows and auto open sun-roof reset, all in an hour or so.
Reset procedure for windows (front auto down only on 1999) was:
- Full down and hold for 5 seconds.
- Full up and hold for 5 seconds
Auto down should be active.
- Reset procedure for sunroof was:
- Full up and hold for 5 seconds
- Full down and hold for 5 seconds
- Full back and hold for 5 seconds
- Full front and hold for 5 seconds
Auto open should be active.
It was a year or two before I learned about the sunroof auto open which stops a
few inches before the end of the travel. It reduces the wind buffeting if front
and rear windows are closed.
The tech noted that my battery frame did not need as much disassembly to replace
the battery as on later W163 model years.
8.5 years on original battery - pretty good going in my book.
First time this vehicle has ever left me stranded, and it was my fault.
He said the new gel batteries for W164 models are meant to have a longer
lifetime but they don't, plus they need longer to rebuild charge after running
flat and are harder to change as they live under passenger seat.
Does anyone know what exactly the warning is for to "disconnect the battery when
recharging to prevent damage to electronic systems"?
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:05 AM #37 (permalink)
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:28 PM #38 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Replacing Battery...........Upside Down!!
A post from Down Under.
My 1999 430ML is still on the original German battery after 120k kilometres
(about 75k miles in US speak) and it's on its last legs. I couldn't figure out
how the darn thing was removed. www to the rescue again! A big to ghitos73, your
advice is 5 years on and going strong!!
The 430ML is a much maligned 4WD but I LOVE mine! And the drivers window switch
is broken too! Again!
Later Update: Have now repaired the window switch following ghitos73
instructions. Boy, was that fun!!
Later, later update: Have now also replaced battery. No problems however if
you're buying a non_OEM battery watch the terminal offsets. The cables have
offsets tailored for the OEM battery and the battery I bought had different
terminal offsets (further from the end of the battery) which made it necessary
to bend the cast connectors on the battery cables to connect properly. Also the
battery length and width were OK but the depth was about an inch less, so I had
to fit a rubber block under the plastic spacer to hold the battery in place.
Others on this forum have had similar problems I recall.
Dennis Leman
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Last edited by dleman : 04-09-2008 at 07:29 PM. Reason: Further activity
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:18 PM #39 (permalink)
jhdhaliwal
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Posts: 27
Highly recommend Roadside assistance service for Battery replacement
This morning woke up with ML320 not starting. It was working great till last
night. Ok time to make some early morning changes to the schedule urghh
Wify stay home because working as teacher doesnot pay bills, I will hide my face
driving ur van to work. Called Geico roadside assistance to come and give jump
start. Free courteous service. Anyway my wife called me at work and told me jump
start worked and it's running idle for 20 mins before she turned engine off. I
utilized some time during lunch to go over benzworld forum to look for some
alternatives to OEM battery. Anyway came back home and tried starting my ML320
and rats it was again dead beast. Tried jump starting from my Van and even had
Van running but ML320 would not take juice from Van. Finally I gave up and
decided to change battery over the weekend. Had my dinner and started my
computer back on. Voila I came across post here about Mercedes roadside
assistance service. It was 9:30 pm by now but the opportunity was too good to
pass another day. Called MB roadside service and by 10:00 pm the person was
here. He jump started fine with his Mbenz running but decided it was 4 year old
battery and go with the change. He changed in less than 15 mins. It was great
service and total was only $149. Interestingly the service technician was from
Austin MB dealer. Very happy with good service and not so bad price.
Searching for a new car battery for my dads car (97 Camry V6).
Factory battery lasted for good 6.5years. Than we got a replacement from Advance
Auto Parts ( AutoCraft Titanium $75) That thing lasted for a year, until now.
Well it's actually still good, but the car acts weird sometimes, like the dash
would dim a little or the headlights will dim a little when you apply the
breaks. Got it check out at Advance Auto Parts and they tell me it's needs to be
recharged, so basically that tells me that the battery is crap in a way.
Friend of mine works in that store so he tells me that he can take the
difference of $75, from a Red Top Optima if I decide to go that route which I
told him yes. It would basically cost me the difference which is something like
$40 for the Optima Red Top ($120). The old one was rated at something like
600amps CCA, the Optima is rated at 720amps CCA, and the Toyota Factory Battery
is rated at 575amps CCA.
I need some feed back on the Red Top Optima. Will it be bad going with 720amps
vs 575amps OEM? If I'm uderstanding correctly the amp rating is something like a
storage/energy capacity that the battery has.
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Old 12-09-2005, 02:31 PM #2 (permalink)
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I have had my red topped optima for 5 years now and she is still trucking, and
it was in my off road only jeep for a year and i was hard on it. Its my favorite
battery hands down!
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Old 12-09-2005, 02:41 PM #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lextasy623
I have had my red topped optima for 5 years now and she is still trucking, and
it was in my off road only jeep for a year and i was hard on it. Its my favorite
battery hands down!
Thanks for the reply man, from what I've read they are the best. But can someone
answer the other question now with the CCA Amps specs, I'm a battery noob
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:02 PM #4 (permalink)
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think you'd do better in roadside assistance/mobiletronics Pawel...
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:04 PM #5 (permalink)
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get an optima and forget about it If you need CCA specs... just drive over to
the local autozone and look at them? Its stamped right on the lable on the top
of the batteries.
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:15 PM #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
Type R, its so fast, it gets thrown into my garbage can almost instantly!
I laugh every time i see this!!
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:24 PM #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawel
Searching for a new car battery for my dads car (97 Camry V6). Factory battery
lasted for good 6.5years. Than we got a replacement from Advance Auto Parts (
AutoCraft Titanium $75) That thing lasted for a year, until now. Well it's
actually still good, but the car acts weird sometimes, like the dash would dim a
little or the headlights will dim a little when you apply the breaks. Got it
check out at Advance Auto Parts and they tell me it's needs to be recharged, so
basically that tells me that the battery is crap in a way.
Friend of mine works in that store so he tells me that he can take the
difference of $75, from a Red Top Optima if I decide to go that route which I
told him yes. It would basically cost me the difference which is something like
$40 for the Optima Red Top ($120). The old one was rated at something like
600amps CCA, the Optima is rated at 720amps CCA, and the Toyota Factory Battery
is rated at 575amps CCA.
I need some feed back on the Red Top Optima. Will it be bad going with 720amps
vs 575amps OEM? If I'm uderstanding correctly the amp rating is something like a
storage/energy capacity that the battery has.
Every time you drive the car it should be charging the battery... so if thats
not happening it might be the alternator... or the battery is just not holding a
charge.
Of course, if it's not holding a charge... charging it won't help much
regardless of whether it's done in the car via the alternator or outside with a
charger...
The majority of times I've seen dimming while driving... it's just a loose
connection. Maybe clear the terminals and reseat... check the wiring to make
sure it's tight on both ends... esp the ground side.
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:30 PM #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dasgalloway
Every time you drive the car it should be charging the battery... so if thats
not happening it might be the alternator... or the battery is just not holding a
charge.
Of course, if it's not holding a charge... charging it won't help much
regardless of whether it's done in the car via the alternator or outside with a
charger...
The majority of times I've seen dimming while driving... it's just a loose
connection. Maybe clear the terminals and reseat... check the wiring to make
sure it's tight on both ends... esp the ground side.
Thanks for the reply man
But either way I should have the Red Top Optima in tomorrow around noon. Seems
like the battery might not be holding. Cause when they ran a Test on it in the
Store, the computer spit out "Needs to be Recharged".
I have an oportunity to get the full amount back, of $75 when I replace it with
Optima, so I'm gone go for a better battery. I will also look into the
terminals. They always get shit load of Acid Residue on them, all the time.
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:32 PM #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
get an optima and forget about it If you need CCA specs... just drive over to
the local autozone and look at them? Its stamped right on the lable on the top
of the batteries.
I know the specs
I mentioned them in the first post of this thread. It's just the translation of
the specs that I was asking for.
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:37 PM #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawel
Thanks for the reply man
But either way I should have the Red Top Optima in tomorrow around noon. Seems
like the battery might not be holding. Cause when they ran a Test on it in the
Store, the computer spit out "Needs to be Recharged".
I have an oportunity to get the full amount back, of $75 when I replace it with
Optima, so I'm gone go for a better battery. I will also look into the
terminals. They always get shit load of Acid Residue on them, all the time.
Haha, that computer is BS... "Needs to be recharged" is hardly useful... the
important thing is why it ran out of juice in the first place.
If it's the alternator not producing enough power, even the optima won't help.
It'll run fine until the optima is out of power... then you might see the same
behavior.
When the car is running, the alternator is providing all the power for the car
and then some (in fact, enough to run the car AND charge the battery). If you're
experiencing light dimming when the motor is on (and you don't notice a change
in idle... ie it drops down do 200 rpms and almost dies) ... if it's not a
connections somewhere... it's more likely the alternator than the battery...
since the battery isn't running the lights when the motor is running.
Just don't want you to slap in a new $125 battery and run into the same problem.
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:47 PM #11 (permalink)
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i forgot whether this would work on manual or automatic, some one verify this
please:
start the car, then remove one battery terminal cable. If the engine idles fine
with out hesitating for a few minutes, then the alternator is good and the
problem could be the battery. Vice versa, if the car shut off then the
alternator could be at fault.
I havent done this in ages, and i know it's only work on either manual or auto,
which i cant seem to remember which one right now. However, it's worth a try
before buying new battery.
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Old 12-09-2005, 04:25 PM #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dasgalloway
Haha, that computer is BS... "Needs to be recharged" is hardly useful... the
important thing is why it ran out of juice in the first place.
If it's the alternator not producing enough power, even the optima won't help.
It'll run fine until the optima is out of power... then you might see the same
behavior.
When the car is running, the alternator is providing all the power for the car
and then some (in fact, enough to run the car AND charge the battery). If you're
experiencing light dimming when the motor is on (and you don't notice a change
in idle... ie it drops down do 200 rpms and almost dies) ... if it's not a
connections somewhere... it's more likely the alternator than the battery...
since the battery isn't running the lights when the motor is running.
Just don't want you to slap in a new $125 battery and run into the same problem.
It never ran out of juice, it's working. The car stars fine and all. I don't
drive the car at all, it's my dads car. And he's been describing the symptoms to
me of dash dimming and Headlights dimming for a sec one you apply the brakes.
Das, you might be right with the terminals and all, but today I looked at them
and they were perfectly clean. Might be the alternator not charging it, but if
that was the case the battery would be dead quickly.
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Old 12-09-2005, 04:50 PM #13 (permalink)
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Clean the connectors and the ground. Make sure they are tight. I had this
problem years ago, and it was just corroded terminals (not visible until I took
them apart).
But in any case, to answer your question, getting a 700Amp battery will not hurt
anything. The starter will only pull whatever load it needs. If you have 200Amps
more to give.... great, but it wont hurt anything.
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Old 12-09-2005, 04:52 PM #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonLex
Clean the connectors and the ground. Make sure they are tight. I had this
problem years ago, and it was just corroded terminals (not visible until I took
them apart).
But in any case, to answer your question, getting a 700Amp battery will not hurt
anything. The starter will only pull whatever load it needs. If you have 200Amps
more to give.... great, but it wont hurt anything.
Thanks for clearing things up man
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Old 12-09-2005, 09:29 PM #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawel
It never ran out of juice, it's working. The car stars fine and all. I don't
drive the car at all, it's my dads car. And he's been describing the symptoms to
me of dash dimming and Headlights dimming for a sec one you apply the brakes.
Das, you might be right with the terminals and all, but today I looked at them
and they were perfectly clean. Might be the alternator not charging it, but if
that was the case the battery would be dead quickly.
So the car starts just fine, yet the computer at the auto parts store said the
battery needs charging? You see where I'm coming from.
Like I said, if the terminals are clean... something might be lose on ground or
power (not just at the battery).
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I think they will replace it if you show it is below the manufacturers limits - probably 13.3 or 13.4 They have been good replacing batteries for me around here - Find another AA and see what they will do. Some parts sellers are overzealous - even if they don;t know what it means. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs . ----- Original Message ----- From: "archer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" <mercedes@okiebenz.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:34 PM Subject: [MBZ] Warning on Autocraft Titanium A battery from Advance Auto > WARNING! If you buy an Autocraft Titanium battery be sure and check the > cells electrolyte levels before installing. > I stopped in an Advance Auto store to buy ATF on a Sunday evening about > two > months ago. The car wouldn't start when I left so I bought one of their > Titanium A batteries. Saturday I serviced the car and checked the > electrolyte levels in the battery. Two cells were dry and it required two > to three ounces of distilled water to bring them up to the correct level. > The other cells sp.gr. was in the red zone 11.50-11.75. > After driving two days, the two cells I had added water to were still in > the > red zone but the other cells had come up almost to normal. I suspect > these > two cells were damaged by driving it two months with very low electrolyte. > > No one at Advanced Auto had ever heard of checking the sp.gr. or had any > knowledge of what it meant, and they refused to give me a new battery. > > I checked the voltage when I serviced the car on Saturday and it was 13.7 > volts. I checked it today and it was only 12.5 volts. I'm wondering if > the > battery might be drawing too much current and might have damaged the > diodes > in the alternator? > Gerry Archer > '83 300D and 240D
New generation of car batteries powerful, but pricey
By THE EDITORS OF CONSUMER REPORTS
Many car batteries look and perform much like those Consumer Reports tested 10
years ago. But a newer type of lead-acid battery called absorbed glass-mat, or
AGM, is gaining ground in new cars and as a replacement battery.
Battery manufacturers claim AGM batteries, which can replace conventional
batteries in many vehicles, last longer, are more durable and safer.
These batteries contain an absorbent fibrous glass material that surrounds the
plates and lines the interior. They are designed to help keep the plates secure
and less subject to being vibrated loose. Manufacturers claim AGM batteries are
completely sealed and spill-proof, which makes them safer and more
maintenance-free than traditional designs. But at $145 or more, AGMs can cost
more than twice as much as some conventional models.
CR's latest tests of 23 batteries included four AGM models. One of them, the
DieHard Platinum 50090, $180, scored the highest in CR's ratings for its group.
Most of the other AGM batteries in the test performed better than traditional
models of the same size group.
Of Group 65 batteries, CR designated three models as Quick Picks: the NAPA
Performance Select 8465, $79; the Autocraft Titanium 65-2, $80; and the Duralast
65-DL. $70. Of Group 34/78 and 78 batteries, CR named three models as Quick
Picks: the DieHard SUV, Truck and Van 29990 (South), $100; the NAPA Select
8434/78, $86; and the AutoCraft Titanium 34/78-4, $80.
CHOOSING THE RIGHT BATTERY
Have your old battery tested. This should be done yearly. It's particularly
important to test a battery if it's more than 2 years old and you live in a
warmer climate, or 4 years old and you live in a colder climate.
Know your battery size. Many cars, minivans, SUVs and pickups use one of five
common sizes with side- or top-mounted terminals. Check your owner's manual or
in-store fit guide.
Insist on real-world performance. Choose a battery that scored well in CR's
reserve capacity testing. Full ratings are available on http://www.consumerreports.org/.
Buy a no-maintenance or sealed battery. You don't have to check or refill the
electrolyte levels, as you must with models with inspection caps. All sealed and
AGM batteries are maintenance-free.
Consider climate and driving. Where and how you drive plays a large part in
determining the battery that's right for you. A battery that performed well in
CR's life tests is a good start, especially if you make a lot of short trips
that don't give your car's alternator much time for recharging.
A handle comes in handy. An attached plastic loop eases lifting and carrying if
you install or remove the battery yourself. All the models CR tested have a
loop, except Interstate's Mega-Tron Plus MTP-65 and Mega-Tron 11 MT-65.
Dispose of old battery safely. Batteries are made up of largely of toxic lead
and acid, but can be recycled.
With the demands placed on today's vehicles by electronic
devices and options, consumers look for the best car battery to provide a
reliable source of power, but the average life of a battery has grown shorter
due to these increased energy requirements. The life span of your vehicle's
battery will depend on usage. Some make it for as little as 6 months and others
are good for up to 48 months. However, it's important to note that only 30
percent of batteries achieve that 48-month mark. Even when you buy a battery
that is rated as a top performer, factors like the type of vehicle, how it is
driven and weather conditions all affect longevity.
Rank
Item
Why is it the best
1.
Interstate Batteries
Since 1990, Interstate has been the top-selling car replacement battery brand in
North America and lasts longer than any other automotive battery.
2.
Optima Yellow Top
Autobahn Power ranks the Optima Yellow Top as the best car battery to meet the
demands of car owners who drive vehicles loaded with accessories like running
lights, high-performance stereo/AV systems, winches, or hydraulics. Along with
all this power comes a bit more expense compared to the average automotive
battery.
3.
AutoCraft Titanium
This battery is listed among the leading brands at Autobatteries.com. Its
premium Silver/Tin/Calcium alloy is maintenance-free and corrosion-resistant
which provides longer life.
4.
Exide Marathon Battery
Image:Jump Start.JPG
Popular Mechanics lists the Exide Battery as one of the best. This battery comes
with one of the best warranties in the business. It features a full 40-month
free replacement and a 108-month limited warranty. When they say free, they mean
it. A no-charge replacement is provided when you return a defective battery.
Along with this, the warranty also provides free 24-hour emergency jumpstart
assistance for 40 months. They post the emergency number right on the battery
label.
5.
DieHard Security Battery
This updated version of the traditionally reliable Diehard is the only battery
on the market that contains an immobilizing system. It definitely ranks as a
best car battery, for it not only assures your car will have the power it needs
even if the lights are left on, but it also helps prevent theft.
6.
Duralast Gold
Autobatteries.com claims that the patented design features found in Duralast and
Duralast Gold batteries extends battery life, ranking them among the most
dependable batteries ever built, no matter what climate you live in.
7.
EverStart
Image:Car Battery2.JPG
Autobatteries.com also includes EverStart among its recommended auto batteries.
They cite the wide line of choices which include domestic, foreign and vintage
vehicles. Plus, they can be purchased at your local Wal Mart Tire and Lube
Center.
8.
Motorcraft
Motorcraft batteries are installed in every new car produced by the Ford Motor
Company. When it comes time to replace the battery, more than 5,000 Ford,
Lincoln, and Mercury dealers throughout America recommend replacing the original
with another Motocraft because they are designed to work best in your car, van
or truck.
9.
Kirkland Signature
Kirkland Signature batteries are available exclusively to members of Costco
warehouse clubs. These dual-terminal universal batteries can be used in place of
a variety of battery sizes which makes for an easier and cost-efficient
decision.
10.
TrueStart
TrueStart batteries are available through your local Toyota Dealer. Along with
the ability to start your car every time, the stringent reserve capacity (RC)
levels provide additional power to your car's electrical system when the
alternator is overtaxed.
As we searched online for car batteries, we found only the
Optima car batteries for sale. Lowcostbatteries.com/optima-batteries.asp has a
nice selection with the Optima Car Battery - Red Top 75/25 Sealed Automotive
Performance Starting Battery ($102), Optima Car Battery - 34R Redtop Battery
($122), Optima Car Battery - 34M Blue Top Battery ($131), Optima Battery Car -
D35 Yellow Top Deep Cycle Battery ($133). We were able to find some DieHard and
Plus Start batteries on the Sears.com site. The top sellers were the DieHard
SUV, Truck and Van ($97), Plus Start Automotive Battery ($40), DieHard Gold
South ($93). The top Exide batteries are the Exide Select Orbital XCD, Champion
Automotive - long life and high power starting battery, Champion SubZero - built
to handle the most extreme cold temperatures, and the Exide 60 - an all-climate
battery for hot or cold weather. The top Interstate batteries are the Interstate
- 65 Months - 575 CCA ($89), Mega-Tron Plus - 85 Months - 650 CCA ($89-$106),
and the Workaholic - 675 CCA ($89-$103). Instead of shopping online for a
battery (as we found out they are hard to buy), we recommend going down to your
local automotive store (ours is Les Schwab Tire Center) and buy the battery from
them. Most likely you are going to have the shop install the battery for you, so
ordering online only makes sense if you want to install the battery yourself. We
suggest going to Amazon for the best selling car batteries. We especially
recommend the Optima Batteries which deliver consistent performance in all
weather climates.
How often do you need to change your car Battery:
Most car batteries will last 3-5 years depending on the quality and maintenance
involved. It's really hard to know when your car battery needs replacing unless
you have signs like "it doesn't start easily in the morning" or it cranks over
slower than usual. You can take the car to a local shop and have them do a "load
test" to determine how well it is holding a charge. I have found that I need to
replace my battery every 3 years (I have had 2 go bad after the 36 month
warranty). I keep a note in my maintenance files as to the date I should be
replacing the battery. At only $85 to buy and get a battery installed
professionally, it's a very inexpensive portion of car maintenance. You can also
buy a car battery charger that will get you that extra live from your battery
even if it is not holding a charge very well. A car battery charger will cost
about $30 and you can buy them online at Amazon.com if you want. See the entire
list of top rated car battery chargers online.
What is Car Battery RC - CCA:
Reserve Capacity (RC) is just an industry rating for car batteries. It is a
technical term for a batteries capability to power the car with an alternator or
fan belt that is not working. The higher the reserve rating the longer the
automobile can run should your fan belt or alternator go out. The CCA stands for
"cold cranking amps" and determines how well a battery will start an engine in
colder temperatures. If you live in an area where temps are below freezing, make
sure you purchase a car battery that has a high CCA rating.
How to Jumpstart your Battery:
More than likely you will have to jumpstart your car battery at some point. It's
really pretty easy if you have jumper cables. I recommend to all car owners that
they keep a pair of jumper cables in their automobiles trunk at all times. They
can be a lifesaver if your battery ever goes dead. When you want to jumpstart
your car battery, you need to pull a car with a good battery up next to your
car. The cars should not be touching and both ignitions should be off. Put the
positive (red cable) on the positive terminal of the dead battery. Then connect
the other positive (+) terminal to the live batteries positive connection. Next,
put the negative clamp (black) on the "live" batteries negative terminal. Put
the other negative clamp on a metal surface (like the engine block). Once all
the clamps are secure, start the car providing the jumpstart and wait a second
before trying to start the car with the dead battery. Hopefully it will start
with no problems, although you still need to get your battery check for bad
connections or corrosion. If it doesn't start you will need to get a new
battery. Buying a new battery and having it installed should cost about $85. A
pair of jumper cables from Sears cost about $29.99. Amazon carries a huge
inventory of the most popular jump starters online.
Just because a battery is more expensive than others doesn't mean it's any better. For example Wal-Mart's Everstart batteries are manufactured by Johnson Controls who also makes other big name batteries. My wife's car has an Everstart which has been going strong for almost 4 years. Sears DieHard are very good. I've had several in cars I bought but never purchased one myself. I know the DieHard Gold in my car was $75 brand new. Also Interstate are excellent battery but very expensive. In all honesty I think you can go out and purchase any battery and it'll be reliable whether it's from Sears, walmart or Autozone. All batteries are quality. As with anything it's possible to get a lemon but the chances are slim on that happening. Also all batteries come with 1, 2, or 3 year free replacements and prorated warranties up to 100 months. So don't worry about it. Buy what you can afford. If you only have $40 go to Walmart. There's nothing wrong with that. Even better is that Walmart's are everywhere so the chances of getting help when you need is greater.
Good auto-related jobs at risk across Canada
Jeremy Cato, 11/03/09 at 4:14 PM EDT
If I were to speak bluntly to the federal government, I'd put it this way: it's
not just the auto manufacturing jobs that are at risk right now and you know it.
And it's not just the parts manufacturing jobs, either.
Together, auto and parts assembly jobs in Canada added up to about 127,000 jobs
as of the end of 2008. Let's not underestimate the importance of this work.
These jobs pay well, well enough to raise a family on a single income in most
parts of Canada.
With all due respect to pizza delivery drivers and Starbucks baristas, the
127,000 jobs at the top of the automotive employment pyramid are NOT pizza
delivery jobs or low-pay work making lattes. They pay well and offer good
benefits.
But let's put all that aside for the moment. Let's not talk about the
best-paying jobs in the auto sector. Instead, let's talk about tens of thousands
of other jobs at risk in every community across Canada. These jobs are not
merely in Ontario – home to the vast, vast majority of those 127,000
manufacturing jobs – but towns, cities and communities everywhere. These jobs
are in car dealerships.
The latest Statistics Canada data says car dealerships across the country employ
138,432 people. Most of these jobs pay pretty well, too. Many are in service,
where good technicians can earn upwards of $100,000 a year, if they hustle.
Others are in sales, where a good sales rep should earn $50,000-$75,000 a year
in normal times – more than that on occasion.
StatsCan, in fact, says the average dealership employee earned $895 in a typical
week last year. That is compared to the $495 weekly average salary in the
overall Canadian retail sector.
The point is, the current economic mess is putting at risk up to a quarter
million good-paying jobs in auto assembly and retailing. The House of Commons
hearings going on in Ottawa right now are zeroing in on bailout aid to General
Motors and Chrysler and that misses the bigger picture.
This is what Toyota Canada managing director Stephen Beatty was getting at
yesterday. He urged the federal government to provide billions of dollars in
credit and incentives to jump-start auto sales in Canada. Rather than hand
billions to GM and Chrysler, Beatty suggested a tax holiday to stimulate new car
sales.
Beatty, the brother of former Conservative cabin minister Perrin Beatty who is
now president of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, is a very political animal
which means he was careful to parse his remarks. He did not, of course, directly
hammer at bailout money for GM and Chrysler. Instead, he talked about jobs that
are at stake at dealerships and suppliers.
In case the feds hadn't notice, new car sales in Canada have collapsed. They
fell 27.7 per cent in February, on the heels of a 25.3 per cent drop in January.
New car sales need juicing or dealership jobs will start to disappear at an
increasingly alarming rate.
So the feds should do two things: 1) Stop foot-dragging on initiatives to make
credit accessible to as many qualified buyers as possible; 2) Look at any other
stimulus actions that make sense and will work at putting the brakes on diving
car sales.
One particular program the industry likes is a vehicle scrappage program with
real incentives – an effective cash-for-clunkers program. Ford of Canada
president David Mondragon suggested Ottawa offer about $3,500 to consumers who
trade in a vehicle at least 11 years old for a new one. A similar program in
Germany has boosted sales by 20 per cent there. Here a similar program would
cost $350-million.
I am not entirely sold on the long-term benefits of scrappage programs, but
right now a good one makes sense. What does not make sense is Industry Minister
Tony Clement's suggestion that the problem in Canada is not Canadian demand, but
American demand. He based that on the fact that 85 per cent of the auto
production in Canadian plants is exported to the U.S.
Well, Clement is missing an important point here. Sure, Canada's plants export
the bulk of what they make. That said, demand for new vehicles in Canada has
fallen off a cliff and needs at least a short-term boost.
Every one of the 138,432 working in Canadian car dealerships, people earning on
average $895 a week would be happy to tell that to Clement personally.
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Letter from Europe
Jeremy Cato, 10/03/09 at 9:43 AM EDT
GENEVA -- The Volkswagen Group, that collection of eight brands which includes
Audi, Bugatti and Lamborghini, staged a pretty upbeat little gala last week in
Geneva, one of the few auto companies offering up even a hint of optimism in an
otherwise dreary weak of bad news in the auto world.
VW AG made money last year, though profit declined 20 per cent in the fourth
quarter and this year will be marked by lower earnings and vehicle sales. The
global economy, of course.
But VW is in pretty good shape compared to other full-line auto makers. Toyota
reported a $1.8-billion (U.S.) loss in the quarter ending December 31. General
Motors lost $9.6-billion in the fourth quarter, and Ford posted a $5.2-billion
loss.
While VW was celebrating a profit, GM's Opel subsidiary was trolling the German
Bundestadt looking for billions in government assistance.
VW, of course, is now reaping the benefits of the hard work done by former CEO
Bernd Pischetsrieder. He was ousted by chairman Ferdinand Piëch in late 2006,
but he took a lot of hard decisions on the product and manufacturing fronts that
are paying off today.
Pischetsrieder was not one of Piëch's favourites, and Piëch will never offer
thanks, but it's due. The work he, and former VW brand boss Wolfgang Bernard,
did years ago set the stage for the company's current success.
At the gala, the star was not some fancy Bugatti or Lambo, but VW's redesigned
Polo subcompact. It's a bread-and-butter model that I am sure would sell in
Canada if VW could somehow price it at less than $15,000. With the Euro what it
is, however, that's not possible, though VW officials in Canada and the U.S.
insist they are scrambling to find a way to make the Polo work in North America.
It's possible VW will consider building the Polo in low-cost Mexico, where VW
has a plant. That might make the car affordable in Canada. If so, VW should
consider offering the three-cylinder diesel engine with the lowest CO2 emissions
of any car on the market.
I was shaken by something that current VW CEO Martin Winterkorn said. Looking at
an over-the-top Bugatti sports car, he said “We (the VW group) are the only
brand that can fulfill every customer wish.”
I couldn't help but think of GM when he said that. VW may be doing well now, but
keeping a multi-brand strategy working is not easy at all.
But then Pink arrived to serenade the crowd. She's a sassy rock singer with
tattoos and bleached hair and I am sure most of the middle-aged men in the crowd
are happy she's not their daughter.
She's a bit rough, but she can sing. That was lost on the vast majority of
graying, paunchy men in attendance. Some of them might remember Janis Joplin's
Me and Bobby McGee and probably were wondering why Pink sang a cover of it.
They'd never heard of Pink, of course.
VW looks strong enough to afford Pink's rates, which would have to be
$50,000-$100,000 (U.S.) for a four-song set. But 2009 will be a struggle, as it
will be for other German auto makers.
Take BMW. Its worldwide car sales fell 24 per cent in February, to 80,453 cars
for February, compared with 106,368 cars in February 2008. Disaster.
Even Mini's brand plunged by 27 per cent to 11,583 cars compared with 15,919
sold in February 2008. The new Mini convertible coming later this month might
help a little bit with sales, but it's a niche model and won't have a huge
impact overall.
Oddly, the Rolls-Royce brand increased sales 18 per cent in February, all the
way up to 67 cars for the month, compared with 57 a year ago. The super rich
apparently still have money.
Roller sales were surely not helped by Germany's scrappage program, however.
Auto sales in Germany last month boomed to their highest level in 10 years. Why?
The German government's bonus to people who scrap older cars and buy new ones.
If you have a nine-year-old clunker in Germany, the government will give you
€2,500 to junk it. New-car registrations in Germany were up more than 21 per
cent in February thanks to this scrappage program.
In Canada, the feds have proposed a scrappage program that gives people a $300
credit, not cash. It won't spur sales at all. This program is insultingly silly.
But in Germany, a serious scrappage program is helping VW and other auto makers
in Germany survive the current economic mess.
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Consumer Reports picks best-value cars
Jeremy Cato, 26/02/09 at 4:18 PM EDT
Honda and Toyota, again.
Consumer Reports has named the Toyota Prius the best overall new-car value from
among 300 cars evaluated in its 2009 Annual Auto Issue. And Honda earned CR's
top brand rating for the third straight year.
And there was more bad news for Chrysler LLC. It finished at the bottom with
“poor performing products” and “sinking reliability results.” No Chrysler, Dodge
or Jeep vehicle made the magazine's “recommended'' list.
The gasoline-electric hybrid Prius, on the other hand, put in a stunning result,
given the complexity of the dual power train. CR said the Prius provides the
best overall value because of its comparatively low owner-cost estimate over
five years — and a relatively high road-test score of 80 points out of 100.
CR's best values are chosen based on overall road-test scores, five-year
owner-cost estimates, and predicted reliability ratings. CR then divides each
vehicle's five-year owner cost by its overall road-test score to get the cost of
each test-score point. The lower the cost per point, the better the value.
Honda, meanwhile, “builds the best all-around vehicles for American drivers,”
said CR in its annual auto maker report card that goes on sale Tuesday.
Honda was followed by Subaru, Toyota and Mazda, with four brands tied for fifth
place: Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Volkswagen and BMW. Ford and General Motors showed
improvement over last year, but CR chided them for not moving more quickly and
comprehensively to improve their products.
Of course, not all Japanese-sourced vehicles are excellent. While both Honda and
Toyota had starring roles in the '09 CR results, the Honda Element crossover and
Toyota Yaris small car failed to win the magazine's “recommended” rating.
Recommended vehicles score well in safety, comfort, performance, reliability and
interior craftsmanship.
“Less than a quarter of Consumer Reports recommended vehicles are from U.S.
companies, a result of inconsistent reliability and performance,” the
publication said in a release.
Still, not all Detroit-based models were given poor marks. The made-in-Canada
Ford Flex crossover and the F-150 pickup, along with GM's Chevrolet Malibu and
Cadillac CTS cars “have done well in CR's tests and rank near the top of their
classes,” the magazine said.
Among the Europeans, Mercedes-Benz “showed the most significant improvement.”
“Reliability was greatly improved across most of the Mercedes-Benz model line,
with 67 per cent of tested vehicles now recommended compared to none in the
prior year,” said CR in a release.
CR also included two new models among its best-rated SUVs (sport-utility
vehicles) and pickups: Toyota Highlander and the Chevrolet Avalanche.
The Highlander dethroned the Hyundai Santa Fe, last year's winner in the
midsized SUV category. The improved reliability of the new Chevrolet Avalanche
helped it to replace the Chevrolet Silverado as top pickup.
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Why can't GM get its story straight?
Jeremy Cato, 24/02/09 at 2:07 PM EDT
If you were expecting General Motors Corp. to stop selling the 556-horsepower
Cadillac CTS-V, think again.
GM announced last week that it would cease work within its High Performance
Vehicle Operations. That's the small skunk works inside the company responsible
for tuning certain hot-shoe versions of certain otherwise mainstream models.
Factory-tuned muscle cars apparently were coming to an end at GM.
Not so fast.
GM will continue to sell the CTS-V developed by HPVO, as well as the Chevrolet
Cobalt SS and the Chevy HHR SS. Apparently the upcoming 2010 Chevy Camaro SS
still has the green light, too.
Yet GM says the engineers who had been working on these cars are moving into
different areas of the organization. They'll get to work on everyday Cadillacs,
Buicks, Chevrolets and Pontiacs.
GM will continue to sell the CTS-V and the others because the engineering and
design work was done long ago. Until the time comes to replace them with the
next generation, what exists now will continue to exist.
Moreover, GM will still be working on racy cars for the future, though not
inside HPVO. You see, in GM's work, HPVO had already been cut out of making a
number of high performance cars.
Within GM, regular vehicle-line teams create vehicles such as the Chevy Z06 and
ZR1 Corvettes that you would think should belong to HPVO. But no, not at all.
The Camaro SS, due in the spring, was developed by the normal Camaro team, not
HPVO.
Confused? You should be.
This whole episode serves to underscore how reluctant GM management is to commit
to hard decisions, to make tough choices and move on. And from this story, it's
easy to infer the ongoing turf wars within GM that have paralyzed the company
for decades.
Remember, while HPVO has existed for years, its work was limited to fine-tuning
suspensions, brakes, wheels, aerodynamics and body panels. The important power
train work was left to others. Sounds like a turf war to me.
Moreover, HPVO did not take sole responsibility for all the factory muscle cars
coming from GM and thus no one, or no one group, could be blamed if something
went awry.
Even now, GM says HPVO is not being formally disbanded, but rather is on
indefinite hiatus – it could be back if market conditions change. And regardless
of what happens with the fuzzified HPVO, GM says it might still create a
high-performance version of a future model if it seems like the right thing to
do.
Apparently at GM, even when a decision is made, it's not really and truly made
at all. No wonder this company is in such a sad state.
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Fast cars and female drivers
Jeremy Cato, 19/02/09 at 1:14 PM EDT
Danica Patrick came to the Canadian International Auto Show yesterday and it
reminded me of three things.
First she can drive. She won the IndyCar race at Motegi, Japan, last April and
that silenced plenty of critics who said she was just a pretty face (and body),
one undeserving of a big-time Indy ride.
Second, she does look great.
I know this, of course, thanks to the extensive research I suffered poring over
the last Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. I'll make myself do more research
in the upcoming one in which she also appears.
Third, a lot of very good male race car drivers resent her – especially the ones
who think they'd have been great drivers, won lots and lots of races, if only
they'd had the breaks Patrick gets because “she's a woman.”
None of these drivers want to go on the record here, at least the ones I've
interviewed. They don't want to risk alienating sponsors, the life-blood of auto
racing. But the feeling is real and palpable: Danica Patrick gets everything
handed to her because she's a woman, not a great driver.
Sounds like sour grapes to me. No one wins an Indy race thanks to affirmative
action for women. She would not be in that Honda-powered Indy car if she
couldn't drive and couldn't win. She has talent, burning ambition and guts,
which is the right combination to win races.
So I'll be rooting for her when she is in Toronto next July driving in the Honda
Indy Toronto. Honda will be, too.
Toronto's Indy race is a huge deal for Honda. Last fall, Montreal lost its
Formula One race and then in December Honda Motor Co. announced it would
withdraw from F1 racing entirely.
It was a shock. Honda was the open-wheel circuit's biggest-spending owner, but
reeling from the global financial crisis, Honda pulled the plug on an F1 effort
that cost an estimated US$217 million last year alone.
Honda had been in and out of F1 since the 1960s, but operating in crisis mode
means conserving cash wherever possible and that means no excessive and
unnecessary expenditures. F1? Gone. Not in these tough times.
But Honda thinks of itself as an engine company, and racing is important at some
level. That level is the Indy Racing League, North American's open-wheel
circuit. Look for Honda to give the Toronto race all its attention on July 12.
Speaking of attention, I couldn't see for myself, but I doubt Patrick took in
much beyond what was called for in her contractual obligation to promote the
July race. But I'd have suggested taking in a few out-of-the-way exhibits away
from all the new models:
The GTA in Motion has several smart presentations and innovative displays with
the theme “The Future is Electric.” I know, I know, this is the antithesis of
Indy racing, but interesting nonetheless.
If you are wondering whether reliable, durable and safe lithium ion batteries
are possible, this is a place to start.
Will auto makers ever agree on common technical standards for electric vehicles?
Look for answers here.
Will governments, utilities and auto makers ever agree to work together on
electric cars and the needed infrastructure? Ask your questions here.
I am less thrilled about NASCAR racing, but if it's your bag, the NASCAR
pavilion is your place. Ask them why their races consist of driving really fast
in a circle when other circuits make drivers turn both left AND right.
Finally, there is an excellent Corvette display at this year's show. It's on the
700 level of the South Metro Toronto Convention Centre. Here's what you should
see: The “History Room” has on display the two rarest of all concept cars, the
1962 Corvette “Mako Shark” and the 1965 “Manta Ray” Corvette.
I'd like to think Danica Patrick stopped by for a look.
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2010 Prius faces stiff competition
Jeremy Cato, 18/02/09 at 3:03 PM EDT
Toyota Canada is weeks away from launching the third-generation version of what
has become arguably the single most important vehicle in the Toyota lineup, the
2010 Toyota Prius.
More than Camry, more than Corolla, more than any other vehicle Toyota sells in
the world, the Prius is the one car that symbolizes Toyota and Toyota's future.
Toyota may not have intended to become the hybrid company, but like it or not,
that's what has happened and it's all thanks to the Prius.
As I said in my video walk-through of the Canadian International Auto Show, the
Prius is the best-selling hybrid in history. More than one million Prius hybrids
have been sold world wide over the last decade.
That success, and the steady migration of hybrid technology throughout Toyota's
lineup, has established Toyota as the world's leader in hybrid and electric
vehicles.
The Prius has allowed Toyota to cultivate its image as an innovative, technology
leader, one deeply concerned about the future health of Planet Earth – even as
Toyota has launched all sorts of large, gas-guzzling vehicles such as the Tundra
full-size pickup. The Prius has been a critical image-maker for Toyota, allowing
the company to paint itself green while at the same time expanding its lineup to
include more fuel-inefficient vehicles.
The success of the Prius has separated Toyota from rival auto makers and also
put a target on Toyota's back. The Honda Insight, also on display at the auto
show, is the spitting image of the second-generation Prius and that's not a
coincidence.
Honda wants a piece of Toyota's hybrid business and will price the Insight to
get it. Ford's 2010 Fusion Hybrid, another rival, will list for about $30,000 or
so and it has better fuel economy than the Toyota Camry Hybrid.
Look for an Insight price tag of about $21,000. The outgoing 2009 Prius lists
for $27,710 and the third-gen will likely start at about $28,000 when it rolls
into dealerships in June.
In a nutshell, the 2010 Prius is an opportunity for Toyota to re-define the
Prius in the face of renewed competition. Toyota will start by tapping into the
14,000 Canadians who have already purchased a Prius. The kickoff there: Toyota
hosted a special Prius owners event at the show last Saturday.
According to Toyota officials, the Prius generates tremendous loyalty. More than
90 per cent of current Prius owners say they intend to buy another one.
Toyota Canada Managing Director Stephen Beatty says hybrids, for Toyota, are not
merely a passing fad, regardless of gas prices. He says hybrid technology is
central at Toyota and the company plans to offer a hybrid version of every model
it makes by the decade beginning in the year 2020.
“We're committed to hybrid as our core power train,” says Beatty. “We think it's
the most versatile power train we can have going forward.”
Sure, sure, the Prius is core to Toyota and the car has a well-earned reputation
for quality. But in this marketplace pricing is a major, major issue and Honda's
Insight will have an eye-popping price tag.
Toyota will counter with the “value” argument, that its technology is far more
sophisticated, that its car is far better equipped and that Prius resale values,
reflecting quality and owner commitment, are excellent.
This show is a good chance to compare not just the 2010 Prius to the 2010
Insight, but also the other hybrids already for sale such as the Chevrolet
Malibu.
Many argue still that hybrids still don't make sense, that the price premium far
exceeds the money saved at the pump with better fuel economy. But that does not
factor in the politics of the matter.
President Barack Obama, who comes to Canada tomorrow, has said repeatedly that
the future for the U.S. is in “green” technologies. His government plans to
promote and also subsidize “green” technologies and that means hybrids.
We'll follow in Canada, so more hybrids and the like will come to market without
question. Toyota won the first hybrid skirmish with the last two generations of
the Prius, but now, with the third generation coming just as competitors get
serious at making a challenge, the real shooting war is about to begin.
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'Getting our cars to be sexy again'
Jeremy Cato, 17/02/09 at 1:12 PM EDT
Chrysler design chief Ralph Gilles, who grew up in Montreal after his parents
emigrated from Haiti, dropped into the Canadian International Auto Show to talk
about bringing passion to his company's new designs.
Gilles, lead designer on the 2009 Ram pickup, the Chrysler minivans and the
Chrysler 300, has been in his new job for about six months and says he has now
settled on a design vision that boils down to this: "getting our cars to be sexy
again."
"You hear people talking about cars and they talk about them almost as beings,
especially people that love their cars," Gilles says. "There is something that's
timeless about anything that has an animalistic form - like a feline form or a
human form. It tends to endear you to the car. You look at a 1996 Viper, and
it's still a sexy car."
The exterior of future Chrysler will not be edgy, like his own 300 or the Doge
Nitro SUV, says Gilles. Chrysler has done the “edge” look. The next generation
of Chrysler vehicles will be more “organic,” more flowing in their shapes.
Chrysler design chief Ralph Gilles, who grew up in Montreal after his parents
emigrated from Haiti, dropped into the Canadian International Auto Show to talk
about bringing passion to his company's new designs.
Gilles, lead designer on the 2009 Ram pickup, the Chrysler minivans and the
Chrysler 300, has been in his new job for about six months and says he has now
settled on a design vision that boils down to this: "getting our cars to be sexy
again."
"You hear people talking about cars and they talk about them almost as beings,
especially people that love their cars," Gilles says. "There is something that's
timeless about anything that has an animalistic form - like a feline form or a
human form. It tends to endear you to the car. You look at a 1996 Viper, and
it's still a sexy car."
The exterior of future Chrysler will not be edgy, like his own 300 or the Doge
Nitro SUV, says Gilles. Chrysler has done the “edge” look. The next generation
of Chrysler vehicles will be more “organic,” more flowing in their shapes.
Sexy cars, sure, but they must also be functional and responsive to what exactly
is going on out there in the bigger world beyond autos. That means making
Chrysler's interiors flexible enough to incorporate the latest electronic
devices, "so the car never becomes obsolete."
Interiors are a particular focus for Gilles. He is very pleased with the new Ram
pickup, which he says is a good indication of what he has in mind. It has
perhaps the best interior Chrysler has done in decades if ever.
Gilles also wants to make sure new vehicles appeal to a worldwide audience.
While most of Chrysler's sales are in the United States, the automaker is
working to become more global by selling versions of other companies' vehicles
under a Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep badge.
Gilles seems ever the sunny optimist, yet his day-to-day job must be quite the
trial. We all can see the struggles Chrysler is enduring, for instance.
Then there are the joint ventures with other auto makers which he is involved in
moving forward. Even as we chatted at the show, Nissan and Chrysler were still
tied up in a complex deal.
Nissan was working to supply Chrysler with two small cars and both would have
their own Chrysler designs. Chrysler, for its part, had been hard at work on
supplying Nissan with a full-size pickup based on the Ram.
"With the Nissan project we're working on, we've got designers stationed there
... and you'd never know it was based on a Nissan," Gilles said.
How things change. Reports out of Tokyo and Nashville, Nissan's Japanese and
U.S. headquarters respectively, now say Nissan is reviewing its tie-up with
Chrysler.
Automotive News reports that Nissan has decided to put on hold plans for
Chrysler to produce a full-size pickup for Nissan by 2011, and for Nissan to
produce a small car for Chrysler, dubbed the Hornet, by 2010 for sale in North
America. A second small car to be sold by Chrysler in South America is moving
ahead.
In a statement, Nissan North America Inc. said: "Because of current economic
conditions, Nissan and Chrysler teams working on the two ... projects have been
asked to ensure that financial objectives for both companies can be met before
these two projects move forward."
So this is what it means to be a chief designer these days. Have a vision, lead
a team and quickly adapt all of it to whatever changing circumstances greet you
when you come in the door.
How Gilles manages to keep smiling is something of a miracle.
Sexy cars, sure, but they must also be functional and responsive to what exactly
is going on out there in the bigger world beyond autos. That means making
Chrysler's interiors flexible enough to incorporate the latest electronic
devices, "so the car never becomes obsolete."
Interiors are a particular focus for Gilles. He is very pleased with the new Ram
pickup, which he says is a good indication of what he has in mind. It has
perhaps the best interior Chrysler has done in decades if ever.
Gilles also wants to make sure new vehicles appeal to a worldwide audience.
While most of Chrysler's sales are in the United States, the automaker is
working to become more global by selling versions of other companies' vehicles
under a Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep badge.
Gilles seems ever the sunny optimist, yet his day-to-day job must be quite the
trial. We all can see the struggles Chrysler is enduring, for instance.
Then there are the joint ventures with other auto makers which he is involved in
moving forward. Even as we chatted at the show, Nissan and Chrysler were still
tied up in a complex deal.
Nissan was working to supply Chrysler with two small cars and both would have
their own Chrysler designs. Chrysler, for its part, had been hard at work on
supplying Nissan with a full-size pickup based on the Ram.
"With the Nissan project we're working on, we've got designers stationed there
... and you'd never know it was based on a Nissan," Gilles said.
How things change. Reports out of Tokyo and Nashville, Nissan's Japanese and
U.S. headquarters respectively, now say Nissan is reviewing its tie-up with
Chrysler.
Automotive News reports that Nissan has decided to put on hold plans for
Chrysler to produce a full-size pickup for Nissan by 2011, and for Nissan to
produce a small car for Chrysler, dubbed the Hornet, by 2010 for sale in North
America. A second small car to be sold by Chrysler in South America is moving
ahead.
In a statement, Nissan North America Inc. said: "Because of current economic
conditions, Nissan and Chrysler teams working on the two ... projects have been
asked to ensure that financial objectives for both companies can be met before
these two projects move forward."
So this is what it means to be a chief designer these days. Have a vision, lead
a team and quickly adapt all of it to whatever changing circumstances greet you
when you come in the door.
How Gilles manages to keep smiling is something of a miracle.
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Square is the new small
Jeremy Cato, 16/02/09 at 12:53 PM EDT
Take a wander over to the Kia booth, or the Nissan layout, the Scion display.
You'll find the Kia Soul and Nissan Cube, which both roll into dealerships in
the next couple of months, and the Scion xB coming next year.
All three are boxes on wheels. The box may not be the sexiest design statement,
but it totally maximizes space. There is a kind of reverse snobbery to this new
design trend and I suspect it will resonate with many, many, Canadian buyers.
After all, entry-level vehicles comprised 51.3 per cent of all the new vehicles
sold in Canada last year. We're not talking just passenger cars here, either,
but all light trucks such as crossovers, pickups and minivans.
We're fantastically ready for something different in small cars. We Canadians
have been shopping among entry-level cars that all share the same basic design
formula for years and years.
The sedans, the hatchbacks and in some cases the coupes have been sold with
different features and sheetmetal creased in different place, but the
fundamental format is exactly the same from auto maker to auto maker.
The Soul, the Cube and the xB shake things up a bit. They dare to be cool by
being the antithesis of sleek.
Kia is calling the 2010 Soul its urban crossover vehicle and its look tries
hardest to be rugged and macho. The Soul will be the first of this trio to go on
sale with a base price of $15,495 for a version with the less powerful
four-cylinder engine (1.6-litres, 122 horsepower).
The standard fare includes six air bags, power locks, windows and heated
mirrors, AM/FM/CD/MP3 stereo with AUX and USB ports, Bluetooth(R) to sync your
mobile, steering wheel mounted audio controls, and heated seats.
To get the 142-hp, 2.0-litre four-banger you'll need to spend at least $17,995.
This version has decently sized 16" alloy wheels, four-wheel disc brakes,
anti-lock brakes (ABS), anti-skid Electronic Stability Control (ESC), deeply
tinted glass, roof rails, cruise control, "Soul" patterned seat cloth, and
keyless entry with panic alarm and air conditioning.
By being first out of the box with its box, Kia is hoping to get an edge on the
competition. That won't last long, though. And if these square players prove
popular, other auto makers will quickly jump aboard the bandwagon.
The Canadian International Auto Show runs until Feb. 22 at the Metro Toronto
Convention Centre and the Rogers Centre.
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i MIEV? i LIKE.
Jeremy Cato, 13/02/09 at 1:10 PM EDT
i MIEV
The “slap, slap slap” of raindrops on the windshield, ricocheting through the
Spartan little cabin of the i MIEV, takes some getting used to on a rainy day,
says David Patterson, who heads up Mitsubishi's electric vehicle program in
North America.
The almost dead silence of the running vehicle itself is just one of many
adjustments we'll need to make when, or if, electric vehicles go mainstream, he
adds. When the only noise the car makes is the whir of its electric motor and
the faint thrum of the tires, whatever else is out there resonates, says
Patterson.
What will that mean for consumers, and just as importantly, for pedestrians who
will no longer be able to use their ears to judge traffic? Mitsubishi is
searching for these answers right now in anticipation of the commercial launch
of the i MIEV this summer in Japan.
So the i MIEV on the Mitsubishi stand at the Canadian International Auto Show is
not a concept, but a real car. Mitsubishi Canada has designs to sell it here,
too, though no one is talking about a launch date – officially.
Quietly, on the side, we're hearing talk about putting a fleet of i MIEVs on the
streets of Vancouver during the 2010 Winter Olympics. Mitsubishi Canada might be
able to sell 2,000 a year in Canada. They'd be city cars for the crowded
downtowns of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, at least to start.
Take a close look at the i MIEV at the show. It is a minicar, pretty much like
any current showroom model from Mitsubishi.
The vehicle starts life as the i minicar sold in Japan with a small gasoline
motor. So that's the ‘i” part. MIEV stands for Mitsubishi Innovative Electric
Vehicle.
What's innovative? The i's regular four-speed automatic transmission has been
replaced by a two-position gear selector that lets you choose Drive or Eco mode.
And where the tachometer normally goes on the instrument panel, this i sports a
meter that indicates the charge status of the battery and the discharge rate.
But the critical innovation is the lithium ion battery back. Lithium ion
batteries are smaller, lighter and more powerful than conventional nickel-metal
hydride batteries and they are what makes the i MIEV work – what gives it decent
performance and range that in ultra Eco mode can extend to 160 km, though 100 km
is probably more realistic.
The i MIEV's batteries have been co-developed by Mitsubishi Motors, GS Yuasa
Ltd. and Mitsubishi Trading Co. That, says Patterson, is one of the things that
gives Mitsu an advantage in what is shaping up to be the electrification of the
automobile.
A few quick details: the i MIEV's motor, inverter and charger are located under
the floor of the luggage area behind the driver, with 22 lithium-ion cells
artfully spread under the belly pan. A rear-mounted, permanent-magnet
synchronous motor develops 63 horsepower and 133 pound-feet of torque.
Patterson says the i MIEV is pretty sprightly around down: 0-100 km/hour is
possible in around 9.0 seconds, but it feels faster because all that electric
thrust goes right to the wheels.
Of course, with electric cars, the vehicle itself is just one of the issues.
There is also the electric charging mechanism for the car and infrastructure to
support recharging.
For this runabout, there is plug-in recharging using the regular grid. That
takes 14 hours for a full charge on a 110-volt domestic outlet or half that time
on a 220-volt industrial outlet. Patterson says Mitsubishi has also developed
its own quick-charge system that replenishes 80 per cent of the battery charge
in just 30 minutes.
If you charge at night when the electric grid is not so busy – at least in Japan
where Mitsu has done fleet testing for more than a year – you can reduce your
running costs by 87 per cent compared to the conventional gasoline-powered i.
So if you take into account the CO2 emissions produced by Japan's electric power
plants (mostly nuclear) the i MIEV emits only 28 per cent of the CO2 of a
comparable gasoline-powered i.
Finally price. Mitsu officials hint at $25,000 or so, though Patterson is not
willing to be pinned down on a price tag here in Canada.
What he will say is that the Japanese government subsidies zero-emissions cars
and they slice the price by 50 per cent. Something similar in Canada would
surely kick-start an electric car business here.
In any case, have a look at the i MIEV for yourself. It's at the show running
until Feb. 22.
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A bad sign for GM
Jeremy Cato, 10/02/09 at 11:55 AM EDT
General Motors Corp. will present its viability plan to the United States
government on February 17, so it's fair to ask why two very senior GM executives
– executives certain to be deeply involved in crafting that plan – have
announced they are leaving the company.
Bob Lutz, the vice-chairman for global product development, is stepping aside
from day-to-day operations as of April 1. He'll stay on as an adviser, but his
operating role will be assumed by Tom Stephens, the power train vice-president
who in both style and temperament is the antithesis of Lutz.
Lutz is 76 and it's reasonable to conclude that at his age he's had enough and
wants to go fly his jets and helicopters, drive his cars, ride his motorcycles
and enjoy his homes in the Caribbean, Switzerland and elsewhere.
Except that's not Bob Lutz.
He's an ex-Marine fighter jock and those types don't normally walk away from a
fight before it's over, choosing instead to enjoy playing with the toys.
As well, his greatest project in a long career, the Chevrolet Volt extended
range electric vehicle, is not scheduled to come to market until late next year.
So again, Lutz is leaving before the job is done.
I can say this: I spent an hour with Lutz last month and I left with the
impression that he'd had enough. The last straw might have been the spectacle in
Washington, D.C. late last year. He was angry and insulted by politicians who
abused and insulted the CEOs of GM, Ford and Chrysler during hearings into a
government bailout package.
The point: Wall Street types and bankers have had no trouble getting
US$350-billion in bailout money, but car companies that employ tens of thousands
of middle class workers have to prostrate themselves to get US$25-billion.
Lutz told me he was not included in GM's Washington delegation because he would
have had some very impolitic words for the politicians.
The bottom line is that Lutz is leaving at a time when GM's future is in doubt.
He is retiring before the fight for survival is over. It's not a good sign for
GM.
If there is more to the Lutz retirement than we've already heard, Lutz himself
is not likely to tell. He has always been the good soldier – the good Marine –
so he's unlikely ever to speak in detail about his departure from GM.
As for departure No. 2 at GM, the second-ranking public relations executive at
GM, Tony Cervone, is also leaving the company. He's going to United Airlines to
take over communications at a time when the airline companies in the U.S. are as
badly off as the car companies. Talk about jumping from the frying pan to the
fire.
Cervone has long been considered the heir to GM's top PR guy, Steve Harris. Now
he's switching industries just at the precise moment when he would have been
deeply involved in crafting GM's message surrounding the Feb. 17 plan. His
leaving at this juncture is another sign of instability at the very highest
levels at GM, Not good.
Of the two, Lutz leaves the bigger legacy, but then he's more than three decades
older than Cervone and has been directly involved in creating some highly
memorable vehicles. He'll be missed and his achievements should be honoured.
Here's a partial list of the vehicles Lutz has been involved in developing over
his career:
* Dodge Viper
* Plymouth Prowler
* Chrysler's LH sedans
* BMW 3-Series
* Ford Explorer
* Pontiac G8
* Pontiac GTO (recent version)
* Pontiac Solstice
* Chevrolet Malibu (recent version)
* Chevrolet Camaro (recent version)
* Cadillac CTS
* Buick Enclave
* Saturn Sky
Not a bad list.